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Planning Retirement the RIGHT Way (with Veronica McCain)

so you'll pick me up tonight 
at 7 45. yo well no I got a   few things to take care of first but 
why don't we make a quarter to eight I'm 45. live from Joe's mom's basement it's 
the stacking Benjamin show [Music]   I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and good news 
today is all about getting your way which is   my favorite here to help us work out our goals 
and find happiness we welcome retirement coach   Veronica McCain for our Tick Tock minute we'll 
discuss tips on getting your vocab right to   succeed in the corporate world in our headlines 
why is it that instead of money at the end of the   month the month seems to go too many days for 
our wallet we'll share an explanation from one   popular publication plus we'll throw out the Haven 
Lifeline to Lucky stacking Benjamin's listener Jim   who wants to know what percentage to put into his 
Roth IRA and then I'll share some heartbreaking   trivia and now two guys who like to color way 
Outside the Lines the Philistines it's Joe and oh [Music] and a happy Monday to you stackers nice open 
duck you know given your history I think that   was fantastic we got a great show today fantastic 
show Veronica McCain is here I can't let that go   what do you mean given my history I am Flawless 
day after day show after show let what go I don't   know what we're talking about Veronica giving 
my history great open given my history Veronica   McCain is here today she is a retirement coach 
and uh oh gee we don't get enough time to talk   about just retirement so I'm I'm super happy we 
get to do that sweet I'm gonna retire after this   Marathon recording episodes podcast for the 
last freaking week and a half so you can go   on vacation so like yeah by the time people hear 
this I've had a wonderful vacation in Spain which   meant that uh that yeah we've been talking to 
each other a fair amount lately however we got   a fantastic show today not only Veronica became 
we got a fantastic Tick Tock minute super happy   headline today comes to us from the Wall Street 
Journal the oh gee sorry the Wall Street Journal   The Wall Street Journal are they like the Ohio 
state of newspapers forgot to put the emphasis in   the right place and they get angry those Buckeyes 
no it's the Ohio State I thought it was just oh no   no it's the this is from the personal finance 
section it's written by our friend Veronica   dagger a Veronica writes why it's now easier to 
underestimate your expenses and overspend let's   dive in Veronica writes many people have a gap 
between what they think they spend and what they   actually spend this gaps wide recently is the 
financial and psychological effects of higher   prices further strain people's budgets Elevate 
inflation is rippled through Americans wallets   for more than a year now some have cut back While 
others have increased their spending to keep up   credit card balances were staying relatively flat 
for a while but have jumped higher recently oh   gee you and I let's take it from here I think 
that this is a year where it's crucial to have   your finger on the pulse of what your expenses are 
you know you hear people joke about eggs you hear   people joke about the grocery store of course for 
a while there you saw the gas pump that seems to   have leveled off at least where you and I live but 
I think if you don't have your finger on the pulse   you're just gonna have less money at the end of 
every month well the availability of credit cards   and accumulating that Consumer Debt really makes 
it easy to continue to live the life that you want   to live even if the cost of living has increased 
a little bit because you don't feel the pain of   that right away you know it's like that kind of 
slow death by a thousand paper cuts type of thing   it's like you have a little bit of a balance that 
carries over then you have a little bit more of a   balance that carries over and a little bit more of 
a balance that carries over and so that's a really   good really good signal I think is if you if you 
go month to month and you're not paying off your   Visa bill every single month or if you had been 
and now you're not yeah that's a good trigger to   go like whoa what changed here that'll snowball 
pretty quickly listen to this statistic just to   tell you how many people are not paying off their 
credit cards Veronica writes in the fourth quarter   of 2022 the average household's credit card 
balance was nine thousand nine hundred ninety   dollars up nine percent from a year earlier nine 
percent higher it's a huge big number according   to wallet Hub customer Finance website meanwhile 
the average credit card interest rate of course   rose with spread right yeah uh to record high of 
about 20 percent last week according to bank rate   those are some there's some big downsides for 
not tracking your expenses yeah thinking about   the math on that real quick it's like okay ten 
thousand dollars at twenty percent you're spending   150 100 you know 200 a month of Interest that's 
not going to pay that off if you think okay well   I make 80 grand after taxes bringing home you 
know 60 after taxes and health insurance and   401ks and all that sort of stuff that's a solid 
chunk of your annual budget that's just going to   interest payments that doesn't really accomplish 
anything for you so if you're one of those people   that that balance is increased on I think it's 
really important to figure out how to tighten   I think one way if you have an accountability 
partner a spouse a friend that you're working with   I really think this can be way easier than people 
think that it is Cheryl and I just have a weekly   meeting we meet for 20 minutes it's over wine or 
over pancakes depending on what time of day it is   it's not complicated we just look through it OG 
and I think it can be that simple it doesn't have   to be you know you're using what you know I love 
the tiller money app I think it's fantastic how it   takes a spreadsheet and downloads everything every 
day and you've got whatever numbers you want you   can plug those into your spreadsheet and get it so 
you can slice and dice however you want I like the   cube app as well we of course have lots of fans 
who use YNAB as a great budgeting tool but it's   not really it doesn't even have to be that hard 
it just has to be having just a finger on on the   pulse like where where's our money actually going 
you know it might have been you who mentioned it   years ago oh gee it could have been Paula pant but 
but a lot of people feel handcuffed when they feel   like the advice is look at your budget every 
month and decide all the details that you're   spending on and I think that's one of the things 
that intimidates people or just is a huge Downer   against budgets I don't think you have to do it 
forever and ever I honestly think you set up a   budget we use whatever template you want to use 
make your own or use some of the ones that Joe   mentioned and then you check in on it for let's 
say the first six months or eight months however   long it takes you to establish habits for just the 
way you live just the normal everyday stuff and   then once you've sort of curtailed yourself from 
essentially taking out a loan to buy that pair of   pants or that whatever that thing is you think you 
need uh I don't think you need to check in on that   budget that often I think it's I mean honestly 
I'm checking in on mine every maybe six months   to a year I think that I think the big Point here 
Doug with inflation having gone up as quick as it   did the point is to have these early warning trip 
wires that if you're not going to check it that's   fine but you got to have a tripwire that alerts 
you then that stuff is real and it's different   than it was three months ago because to OG's point 
if you don't catch it early this gets Beyond you   I mean but Wells Fargo's PR team finally getting 
getting ahead of the story here and got themselves   in this piece listen to this I like this money 
grows much faster than most people expect because   interest is not interest says Michael learsh head 
of Wells Fargo and companies advice and planning   center it's a great quote a similar concept 
though applies to inflation prices rise and if   inflation remains high prices continue to grow on 
top of already inflated prices leaving people off   guard quote people get constantly surprised that 
their money isn't going as far as they thought it   would and in fact the cost of eating out and going 
for drinks continues to take Dina lion aback even   though the 36 year old married mother of one's 
dining out and ordering in far less than she did   a year ago some prices still give her sticker 
shot she says the difference between cooking at   home about ten dollars for nice pasta and quick 
sauce from canned tomatoes versus Italian takeout   for now 50 bucks is astronomical said Miss line 
who lives in Brooklyn I think those trip wires   are are what you if you're not going to set it up 
Doug well let me ask you this I mean given your   history with money how exactly do you set up your 
own tripwires so we focused all of our spending   on One credit card I have a rough idea every 
month of what that that number should look like   at the end of the month and if it's significantly 
higher I kind of raise an eyebrow and then I start   scrolling through transactions and realize okay 
those are all legit time to cut it back that's my   trip but you know then where to cut well then 
I start to it's usually uh the same thing for   probably 90 percent of Americans Amazon but uh 
Amazon could be anything though I know that's such   a brilliant way for them to disguise what you're 
buying that it just says Amazon yeah because   you're like there's no way I spent forty one 
thousand dollars on Amazon last year yeah you did   like well what did I buy wouldn't you like to know 
right I bought Fruit Loops and a backhoe exactly but yeah then I just dig in a little bit if if 
the number is significantly higher usually when   that has happened it's because of a couple of 
big purchases and I know right where it was and   um I know that that big purchase isn't going 
to happen again the next month it's you that   for me that's usually what it is it's not the 
trickle effect of Amazon it's usually some big   some big Bill I had but uh yeah that's that's my 
tripwire yeah I just know that given your history   that we really need to make sure that um people 
hear the story you are harshing on me today what   is happening what am I doing I don't give up 
your history and what then you you yeah yeah   harsh on my open what is going on I don't I'm just 
saying that given your history there we go again I   think we need we need to make sure that people 
hear the story like it's a it's a great tale   hey uh speaking of great Tales time for a tick 
tock minute this is the part of the show where   we either have some Brilliance from the people at 
Tick Tock or we have hashtag brilliance from those   very same people uh Doug which one do you think 
we got today this one's legit it's solid yeah well   more solid than my backdrop which is just about 
fell over I love it how people are about to see   they're about to see all the canned goods here 
in the basement when your professional backdrop   goes bye-bye I think you're correct doug because 
oh gee today what we're going to talk about is   how to succeed in corporate life how to how to 
figure out the right things to say let's listen   one of the most important skills you'll need 
to learn if you want to be successful in the   corporate world is how to speak like an absolute 
[ __ ] week and a great way to do this is just   to totally ignore the basic principles of 
English grammar so first take a random noun   and then change it into a verb so a word like 
idea becomes ideate then take that new verb and   turn it back into a noun so id8 becomes ideation 
then take that now and change it back into a verb   so ideation becomes ideation Inc finally take the 
new verb and change it into a meaningless seven   word cluster an all hands Blue Sky ideationing 
session then sit back and wait to be promoted right that immediately it's pretty 
funny after your blue sky ideation   session you're you're good that's pretty 
funny brilliant Joe tell them some of   the we've got some of that same kind of 
corporate phraseology here that that just   develops organically just happens we have 
we've come up with our own lexicon here uh   OG we need to talk to you over by the can 
peaches we say that you're getting canned   first time Doug got canned he thought it was a big 
deal oh God I was remember that yeah I was I I had   Joy I mean uh tears in my eyes and when it's nice 
outside so you know we want to leave the basement   we meet up by the clothesline which we call Doug 
getting hung out to dry there it is we didn't need   the bump this is serious work OG we're all trying 
to get promoted here hey coming up is a woman that   I don't think we need to promote a lot because 
when it comes to retirement planning people   take it way too cavalierly oh gee you know this 
better than most people spend more time planning   their family vacations than they do planning their 
retirement which shows why so many people are not   successful at retirement planning well Veronica 
McCain worked a full career and then realized that   as a second career which we may talk about as well 
she was going to become a certified professional   retirement coach and a charter retirement 
planning counselor after 31 years of Public   Service work decided you know what time to do that 
other thing that I've really really wanted to do   so she founded Savvy retirement coach with the 
mission to provide holistic retirement planning   Concepts focused on self health and wealth we're 
going to talk to Veronica here in a second about   doing a better job planning retirement but Doug to 
get there I think you've got some history well I   think of it as trivia you call it history 
tomato well given your history of doing the   trivia I think we should just have the trivia now 
there's some massive punchline coming I can tell   I don't know what it is but okay fine here's 
the trivia Joe hey there's stackers on Joe's   mom's neighbor Duggan did you know that on this 
day in 1956 Heartbreak Hotel by Elvis Presley   became a number one hit the Smash Hit was written 
by the Queen Mother of Nashville Mae Boren Axton   and Tommy Durden Axton played a recording of 
Heartbreak Hotel for Elvis at a disc jockey   convention in Nashville and the rest is history 
so since we're on the topic of hotels I got some   hopefully not heartbreaking Hotel trivia for 
you my question is if you're evaluating hotels   as an investor what is the difference between 
these statistics average daily rate ADR versus   average published rate or APR I'll be back right 
after I asked Joe's mom to celebrate Elvis by   making me a peanut butter and banana sandwich 
while I tee up Heartbreak Hotel on my Walkman Burning Love Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and we are 
commemorating the anniversary of Elvis Presley's   Heartbreak Hotel becoming a number one hit on 
this day in 1956 with some Hotel related trivia   so my question was if you're evaluating hotels as 
an investor what is the difference between these   statistics average daily rate versus average 
published rate in maybe our most thrilling   trivia question yet try to stay awake non-hotel 
investors the average published rate is believe   it or not this is going to be amazing are you 
ready I'm just settle down because I know the   excitement is building it's the amount a hotel 
asks for rooms well the average daily rate are   you ready for this I know you've been waiting 
by your device all day just trying to figure   out what this definition is that is the amount 
they're actually getting paid for the rooms   if you're a hotel investor this is the opposite 
of boring because if those numbers are close   together it means the hotel is in demand and 
if they're far apart you know maybe not so much   maybe I should suggest our writing team retires 
So speaking of retirement Let's help you get there   permanently it's time to learn how to create 
your retirement your way with Veronica McCain and I'm super happy she's here at the card table 
with us Veronica McCain joins us how are you that you're here because we're about to talk if 
this goes according to plan we're about to talk   about all the things that you and I think people 
should talk about during retirement but often kind   of gloss over because they're you know just don't 
get me wrong we're gonna talk about the money too   but it's about more than money but as a way to 
get there Veronica I've always believed that   if you want advice it's helpful to get it from 
somebody who's kind of walked that path right   when I was a financial planner I had been one 
in a long time but when I was the fact that I   worked with 200 families and I'd seen retirement 
over and over and over again should give people a   little bit of comfort that yes you want to do this 
once I've done it a bajillion times but but I had   not at that point ever retired you have actually 
retired tell me about that do you remember the   countdown to your retirement oh yeah definitely 
I mean I remember when I was working you did you   know you do the usual countdown on your calendar 
kind of exiting out the days until it actually   hits and then that when that day comes I think 
you get a overwhelming emotions because then I   realized you know I'm leaving my work and my work 
was not just work for me I actually had you know   work family what did you do by the way I worked 
for the federal government so I was a associate   director over several various departments within 
an agency a very small agency about 300 people but   um because you're a small agency you kind of 
have to sometimes do a lot so oversaw a lot of   different departments yeah so so you have this 
flood of emotions where the emotions about loss   were they about excitement I don't know is it now 
all the above is it purpose yeah I kind of had an   idea sort of what I wanted to do so I kind of knew 
what path I was going to take once every time I   know it's going to go into some type of coaching 
field didn't know exactly what way I was going to   go with it at first I thought maybe more in the 
Executive coaching area but then as I thought   about that more it kind of gave me flashbacks for 
work so then I decided to get into more of the   the retirement because people were asking me so 
many questions about you know what do you do and   what you retire how do you feel your days and that 
kind of thing so um you know as I was approaching   looking into the coaching area I did look at 
retirement coaching and I said oh this will be   an interesting field to pursue because I like to 
motivate people to have people get excited about   their goals and what they want to do in life and 
I like the kind of the financial side as well so   um you know that's why I decided to kind of lean 
more toward the retirement coaching but getting   back to when that final day came yeah I think 
it was when I had the actual retirement you know   sometimes that work to give you a retirement uh 
party and you see everybody and they're like uh   say something say something and then when I got up 
to say something all of a sudden I started feeling   like I was gonna cry yeah I was looking out at 
everybody and I was like wow I'm you know this   is this is really the end um even though I had 
something you know like I said to look forward   to going through I didn't expect that emotion to 
come over me like that but it did and I think a   lot of people experienced that when the final 
day comes of their retirement there is like a   I don't know I mean it's just morbid but there is 
like a death I mean you're it is it is your last   cake right right you've been to see other people's 
cake but all of a sudden you realize this is your   last slice yeah it is that that's exactly what 
it is it's kind of you know that you're gonna   try to keep in contact with the people that 
you work with and try to have some kind of   relationship but it does change it really does 
because you just you know everything usually that   you talk about with people at work is work related 
stuff and over time when you retire that kind of   goes by the wayside with you so do you feel like 
we're too Cavalier about that about that process   about the uh you know the fact that we're going 
to have these emotions we just think oh I'll deal   with it when I get there yeah I think a lot of 
people are just so caught up and I'm going to be   retired I'm going to be tired I can do whatever I 
want it's so exciting or whatever so yeah I think   you don't really feel like that you're going to 
have those type of emotions I think you just feel   like you're going to go to this next chapter 
in your life and it's going to be oh this this   burst of excitement and it is I'm not saying that 
you're not going to have it but I do think there's   also a period of of where you kind of adjust uh 
to you know what you've left behind in your job   and your identity and all that with that and 
then going forward pursuing what what you had   to look forward to in retirement so it's kind 
of a mixed bag those first couple of years you   tell your own story but you also tell stories 
of a few other people in the workbook one is   a woman named Susan Susan seems a little lost 
can you tell our stackers about Susan Susan is   the one who the days and the walls were kind of 
closing in yes yeah yeah she was the one person   in the book that I talk about and the people 
that I talk about the book are actual people   that I coach I just use different names and 
scenarios names change to protect the guilty yeah she was kind of diverse and this is a this 
is a lot like when you're working you're kind of   looking forward to those days that you have off 
where you can kind of do some things that you   want to do but then when you retire and it's every 
day it gets a little daunting if you really don't   have an idea of what you're going to be doing to 
for your days your day-to-day life I think is the   hardest thing that most people struggle with when 
they retire they have some huge aspirations maybe   of traveling or doing that but once they're 
sitting in their house house on a day-to-day   basis and in the you know the walls of you know 
has kind of quiet and not a lot going on you   don't have that routine of going to work anymore 
it's kind of like what do I do on a day-to-day   kind of thing and that's kind of challenging but 
what Veronica separates your workbook from a lot   of the retirement discussions I've seen is that 
you take this day to day and challenge all of us   to think really bigger about our life like I got 
this feeling even in the beginning Pages as you're   telling the story that well let me just quote 
you you wrote a big void needs to be filled in   retirement but it should not be filled just with 
things to keep you busy like this is not just a   March to the Grave this is a whole different 
piece of your life and it shouldn't just be   about rearranging the salt and pepper shaker every 
day or you know figuring out that the dog needs   to go for a walk like you challenge us to think 
a lot bigger about this period exactly it is an   exciting time for you to think bigger about your 
life because it's probably the first time in your   life that you're actually able to do what you want 
to do on your own schedule and hopefully have the   finances to do that so I think it's more than just 
trying to fill your days with just the stuff to do   and I think a lot of times when you first retire 
if you don't really have an idea of what path   you're going to go down once you retire that's 
what you start doing you start trying to just   okay let me do this do this and do that and you're 
not feeling you're still not feeling fulfilled so   I'm hoping in the workbook I give you exercises 
to help you because people struggle with like   what does this mean purpose meaning fulfillment 
or whatever yeah those are I think sometimes big   words that we use but I hopefully going through 
some of the exercises in the book you will be able   to figure that out by going through the exercises 
and then trying to say okay well what do I really   want to look for as far as my next chapter in my 
life of what I want to pursue and what I want to   do more than just these little small things that 
are keeping you busy I get uh coaching from a   group called strategic coach long time stackers 
have heard me talk about them before but we have   we have a workbook similar to yours with these big 
questions about leadership and about coaching but   you do the same thing here with retirement and 
this is not guys this is not a long workbook but   if you're doing this right it may take you months 
to fill this stuff out because I could see myself   Veronica peeling off maybe two pages and really 
because the thought that goes into each page of   this is really the important part well let me give 
everybody some of the tips from the book that you   have early on because you have workbook pieces 
and then you have some tips here's some tips   early on for when you first get to retirement to 
kind of send you on this path while you're filling   out the workbook schedule activities you enjoyed 
during when you took time off from work journal   and reflect on your expectations of yourself as 
a retired person I love that word Expectations by   the way read books and articles listen to podcasts 
and a variety of topics to discover what most   interests you now and volunteer for different 
organizations to discover how you most enjoy   helping people and helping help being out it feels 
to me Veronica like you're challenging people   also to don't be afraid to explore like go go try 
stuff expecting that it might not be a fit exactly   that's exactly right Joe I want people to not be 
kind of Trapped into thinking they have to have   everything planned out to just go out and just do 
things that they find intriguing or they interest   them and then from there they can determine what 
they want to continue to pursue what they don't   want to continue to pursue but don't don't limit 
yourself on what you what you think you should be   doing or how you should be doing it this is a time 
for you to be adventurous and explore at different   Avenues and things that interest you and a lot of 
times that's kind of a hard thing to do for people   because they've lived this kind of structured life 
up to this point with work and all that and to try   to say oh just go out here and do whatever and try 
to figure it out it can be a little intimidating   like whatever what yeah yeah so I'm hoping that 
the exercise in the book gives you clue you know   kind of cute used to okay these are some things 
volunteering doing some other things that you   know she thought about what maybe when you were 
younger and didn't pursue kind of go back to those   times of those thoughts and and try to figure out 
if there's um things that you want to pursue now   so yeah it's it it's funny because I I really 
went through this crisis where I felt like not   just there's a lot of stuff not interest me but 
but I'm like okay I want to get involved in my   community I want to get involved in organization 
but but which ones I don't this could sound very   horrible Veronica but I just didn't I just didn't 
care about any of them and then I realized that it   wasn't about that I need to just go get involved 
and when I found out and ultimately at first it   was the Arthritis Foundation I got involved 
with I found out about juvenile arthritis I   found out about all of these things happening in 
the arthritis Community I got involved in walking   trails around town and I realized how walking 
trails uh not only your Healthy Living but   beautify a city but they're also very inexpensive 
ways for cities to raise property values like I   learned it by exploring exactly what you're saying 
to do in the book exactly that sounds so great Joe   because that's exactly what I'm hoping people 
would do once they start retiring just like you   said you did you just started going out and doing 
things and as you started doing those things you   learned so much and it got your interest even more 
into whatever activities you were pursuing the one   thing that people have to realize when they retire 
you have to be just to be intentional you have to   go out and do it it's not going to come to you and 
a lot of times I think you know when I'm working   uh coaching with clients they're like well I don't 
know I don't know I'm like well you got to go out   and try you can't it's not going to come to you 
you've got to go out there and pursue it and once   you do and when you know you will see oh okay this 
doesn't just me or this doesn't interest me but   you've got to go out there and do it can we talk 
about that what you just said about you kind of   kicking people in the butt and and kicking them 
out the door to go you know like my mom used to   say don't come back inside until that light turns 
on you know we we back when kids went outside   side maybe I'm dating myself there but you end 
almost every chapter of this workbook with who   are going to be your accountability Partners it 
seems to me like accountability partners are a   big piece of this tell me about how you how do you 
find these people Veronica maybe just before you   retire yeah and sometimes say you know who they 
can be they can be trusted friends and and people   that you know I think sometimes there are people 
that are asking you questions about yourself and   are intrigued about you as an individual but you 
do have to find sometimes an accountability person   because in retirement there's nothing pushing 
you to do anything and if you don't sometimes   have somebody that you can hold accountable and 
if you can't find someone within your your network   I would advise you to look for a coach because 
that's because what they can be as well pursue   look um for a retirement coach or a life coach 
or or someone in that field because they can be   your accountability partner but if you're finding 
that you're struggling trying to get stuff done   and you're not really getting out there or you're 
bored and you're restless and you want to not get   some pickup and you're like you definitely need 
to look into getting somebody to be accountable   and help you because I even have coaches that I 
work with and I'm a coach yeah yeah me so it's   just something that just like I said it helps 
you keep you accountable to someone to keep   you motivated to do things I think that kind of 
like you Veronica I just get this feeling that uh   with my coach if I say it out loud to Mary Lou 
it means I gotta go do it like that if somebody   tells you or if you tell your coach then you 
then you have to go do it I want to stick with   this theme of uh friends and family a little bit 
because those might be some of the people you're   bouncing stuff off of but you also say if you're 
having trouble finding your sense of purpose that   friends and family might be a good Outlet yeah 
and that's what I found for me that's why I said I   want you know I knew I wanted to go into coaching 
I wasn't really sure which way I wanted to go and   the reason why I decided to be a retirement coach 
is because friends and stuff are saying you're   good at coaching and talking about this retirement 
stuff or whatever and I'm not like you should   do something with that and that's why I pursue 
becoming a retirement coach but I think oftentimes   friends and family see things within you that you 
don't even see yourself they recognize talents and   things that you have that you're like oh okay 
you're right I do enjoy that you kind of brush   it off and maybe not pay attention to where they 
might be and I think when you're listening to your   friends and family you have a tendency because you 
trust them to listen to their guidance a little   bit maybe more than somebody else that doesn't 
really know you so I say I always lean into   your friends and families to help you if you're 
trying to figure out maybe you know some things   you might want to do they might say well you're 
good at organizing or you're good at accounting   or you're good at this or whatever and they might 
give you some cues to help you figure out where   that next chapter is going to be in your life in 
retirement so definitely look for them for that   I like the fact that you go through a lot of 
this first about about purpose and value and   meaning before you get to the money in chapter 
two because your chapter two then really is   structured around okay now that you know that we 
can focus on spending money where it's important   and saving money where it's not and hopefully I 
have an idea there you start off with some good   tips you talk about traveling a lot of people 
in retirement want to travel uh you say to be   a conscientious traveler what is what does that 
mean yeah everybody always says when they retire   they want to travel and then all of a sudden 
they just start going places and not really   thinking of where they really want to go and why 
they want to go there I kind of had to regroup   because when I first retired I kind of I think 
everybody does that you go through that I just   want to get out and go go go go go go and you're 
just going everywhere but you're spending money   going everywhere and so you want to kind of 
maybe reel that back in it's okay to have that   little brief period of doing that but you want to 
reel that back in and really think about you know   where is it where do I really want to go why do 
I want to go there what do I want to experience   once I get there make sure you're spending your 
travel dollars on things that are value to you   and make yourself more conscious of the type 
of traveling you're doing I know I did a lot   of girlfriend getaway travels you know spy and 
all that and that's great but I really want it   I want to explore the world that's what I really 
want I want bigger trips and so you know you need   to just be conscious of what your goal is as far 
as you're traveling and where you what you want to   see and make sure you're you know you're putting 
your money into that type of travel versus just   doing things yeah yeah what I really like that 
you shine a light on is now that you're retired   you can really lean into off season and one thing 
that's not in your workbook that I love about off   season that Cheryl and I have found because she 
is a somewhat flexible job and I could travel   whenever man off season you get more of the local 
experience because the places aren't full of a   bunch of tourists people are more likely to be 
able to linger and talk to you like off season   is great but to your point you save you save a 
bunch of money there too exactly and I travel   now that's all I do is try to travel off season 
because just like you say as far as you want to   make sure with your dollars that you're spending 
them in a conscientious way as far as when you're   traveling too going off season I feel like those 
retirees the best time for you to travel because   you really get a feel for everything without 
the crowds and like you said the pricing is   better you're able to enjoy it in a different 
way what are some other ways that new retirees   and people that are stackers that maybe are are 
getting close to retirement can think about areas   where they might be able to save money besides 
on discount or off season travel at first I would   just look in your budget overall of what you you 
know you have developed as far as your I think   everybody should be tracking their costs before 
they retire and coming up with a overall budget   um what they think their retirement is going 
to be but some of the things you can look at is   cars you know the insurance and things of that 
nature look at that to see if there's ways you   you can save on that once you retire there's 
also lots of discounts and stuff like we were   talking about off Seasons but also if you kind of 
pursue looking you know if you want to go to Parks   or whatever whatever your um interest might be 
looking for ways you can get discounts on things   of that nature and just be aware of any ways you 
can save money with traveling it's just a lot of   different ways out there too for other things as 
well two big ones I really like that you had uh   if you've got two vehicles you might be able to go 
to one you know think about what you think about   Transportation evaluate your life insurance do 
you need it anymore are you financially solvent   enough where maybe you could get rid of that and 
then a medical one which I really liked was hey   this medical thing is going to get expensive 
stay healthy which also gets you out of the   house I feel like Veronica again you're kicking 
people's butt out of the house I definitely with   the medical and the exercising and now that you've 
got all this time you've done definitely can get   a nice physical routine into your everyday life 
just simple walking I know I take morning walks   every morning and not just for exercise but for 
meditation purposes for me as well but yeah we   all know the medical cost is a big expense when 
you retire and we also know that you get more you   know seditary in your way you're not as active as 
you were where you were working so I do recommend   that you do have a physical fitness routine for 
yourself when you retire to keep yourself healthy   so you can reduce those medical costs because 
a lot of the Medical classes stuff you can   prevent yeah and things that you could be doing to 
prevent you get but you got to start early on your   retirement and start doing things to keep yourself 
healthy when we go to the doctors at a certain   age you're all getting those oh you're close you 
know borderline there's water flush that and stuff   it's time for you to really you know we're at that 
point you can do things within your health to keep   yourself more healthy so yeah yeah definitely I 
look at a hamburger now and my cholesterol goes up   I just look at it I don't know how that medically 
happens but it's crazy that is we all we all know   that feeling with people that own their house 
you have a section of your workbook to go through   Renovations on your house and thinking about 
your housing situation this is the number one   area in our budget our house what are some of 
those key considerations about our housing we   should be thinking about yeah a lot of people 
like especially if they want to stay in their   houses should look in as far as their as I call 
Aging in place in the houses and look how well   their house is going to be able to support them 
once they start aging and look at you know I have   a checklist in there of things that you should 
look at as far as your stairs and your appliances   and just repairs and stuff that you might need 
to do to your house as you start getting older   those kind of costs if you're not prepared for 
them can wreak Haven on your retirement budget   so if your house is where you want to stay then 
you definitely need to look at it like even the   showers grab bars and um stuff yeah steps if 
that's going to work as you get older I know   with my husband he had had accident he couldn't 
go up the steps but it made me start thinking   you know as we age you know we're not able to go 
up the steps how are we going to do it because   we don't have bedroom on our main level so those 
are the things that you need to really think about   if you're going to decide to stay in your house 
so what you need to do and kind of come up with   a plan so it doesn't all hit you at once because 
sometimes it does you know unfortunately it'll be   unexpected like your husband's too I mean there's 
no you know Tuesday everything's fine Wednesday   the game's changed exactly and you need to kind of 
be thinking about that especially like I said if   you plan on stay in your house what your game plan 
is and start trying to figure out how you can get   your house accessible so that as you age it'll 
it'll still suit you yes you talk about moving   and about a lot of people of course think about 
moving when they retire and you also talk about   friendships and I'm glad that you coupled the two 
of those together because one thing I've always   thought and now I know we're here to interview you 
Veronica but I'm going to pontificate for just a   second no problem because I feel like people think 
of moving wait we talked about being too Cavalier   with this whole thing this especially to me is 
an area where people are too Cavalier I'm just   going to move closer to to my kids and what you 
find is that your kids are really busy they got   a bunch of stuff going on you become a full-time 
babysitter but you don't end up interacting with   them in the way that they want and all of 
these close friendships that you developed   over the last 30 40 years I'm a guy who lived for 
a decade in Texarkana I moved away to Detroit for   two years and Veronica we came back and not 
because I have family here in quotes because   all my friends are here I see some of my friends 
as my friends are getting older you know I find   them getting vacation houses that are far away 
and we're we never get to see them anymore and   I feel like this loneliness this isolation that 
we put ourselves into because we think it's great   like we're I feel like we're way too Cavalier 
about that but anyway I will shut up I'm gonna   get off my steps duel what do you think do you do 
you're sad at all Joe that is exactly what people   do they're very Cavalier they have this idea of 
oh I'm gonna live here and it's going to be this   great but they have no special connections there 
yes or I'm gonna go near the grandkids and the   grandkids are getting older the grandkids are 
going to grow up they're not going to be here   forever be little kids they're gonna grow up and 
have their own things or even if they're already   older they you know have their own activities and 
stuff to do so that's why in the in the workbook   I give a checklist you know it just even asked 
them oh yeah we want you close by and I say also   don't let your only connections be your kids your 
grandkids or your kids you know you need to have   other social connections outside of them because 
a lot of people say I'm a little bit closer for   the children and that might not work out so yeah 
it's one of those things that I think everybody   has this idea of how it's going to be yeah this 
grandiose kind of idea so not true so not true   and that's why hopefully when you go through 
the workbook and you look through the checklist   and if you do the exercises that are focused on 
that you'll have a clear perspective of whether   that's a great move for you or not whether it's 
going to work for you and as you retire because   I think it's hard harder once you get there to try 
to move back so oh agree yeah yeah uh you talked   about how I was a retiree now you know you're not 
forced to get up and go to work you don't have to   now lead the charge like you did in your career 
Veronica with your department with your agency   time management then becomes really important 
then for retirees if you're going to get what   value you want out of life so you talk about 
morning routine daytime routine idea week   again accountability Partners but but I 
wanted to end by talking about this time   management system for retirees you call it uh 
postek p-o-s-e-c can you walk us through that   one of the things that people struggle with 
the most and I kind of alluded to that before   is you had a routine when you were going to 
work once you retire that routine is no more   and I find a lot of times with new retirees 
especially that's where they feel the most lost   is there's no structure to the day anymore they're 
kind of and all you know all over the place and   don't know how they can spend time sometimes just 
Milling around not doing anything or whatever so   I want you to I you know sometimes when I tell 
people you know structure they kind of you know   like that's why I'm not working anymore I 
don't know why not I don't like yeah well   easy easy there all right if you want to try to 
put me back at work with destruction my name is this is the whole purpose of retirement I thought 
for me to just kind of Mill around and not do   anything but I thought we find that when people 
do that they get very bored so I just ask that   you just think of your days and more how am I 
going to start my mornings how am I going to   get up in the morning get started and get going 
through the day I think once you get that start   up in the morning of what you're gonna do it kind 
of guides you through the rest of the day but you   do need to think about how am I gonna just get 
my day started you know when you don't have an   alarm clock to get you going every morning so yes 
the workbook is is my retirement my way it's a   workbook for the newly retired it's funny the way 
that you go through goal setting like a 30 year   old would just reminds me the purpose is important 
no matter no matter where you're at in life and uh   the book's available everywhere correct yes it 
is yes well thanks so much Veronica for helping   our stackers get successful with their retirement 
it's funny we talked to a guy Wes moss in Atlanta   about his book what the happiest retirees know 
and it's so funny how it lines up so well like   if you read that and do your workbook you're 
gonna implement this and you're more likely to   be one of those happy retirees so thanks for 
this work no thank you thanks for having me   this is Daryl from Pennsylvania when I'm not busy 
arguing with a four-year-old um stacking Benjamins oh gee I love that we can talk to Veronica 
for over 25 minutes and uh the concept of   asset allocation doesn't even come didn't make it 
doesn't make the cut we're so busy talking about   what about my efficient Frontier it's all going to 
change I mean not the efficient Frontier but just   your emotional landscape I totally agree with her 
you see it all the time you go through this this   metamorphosis when you hit retirement and even get 
close to it that I think most people are way too   wait I guess they're not expecting it's a whole 
different world I mean if you've been successful   in your entire life this is the transition I 
mean just inside the money concept not not all   the other stuff that she was talking about right 
like time and energy and all that sort of stuff   but just the money piece of it transitioning from 
being a good saver your entire life to being a   good spender for the rest of your life in and of 
itself is a difficult change so hard to make that   switch and it's even harder when you don't really 
know what you want yeah you're much more likely to   just hold on to the money and the thing that you 
underestimate is time you don't have forever to   decide what you want to do would you rather have 
Charlie munger's money at uh 90 or his wisdom at   uh or you know what is he a hundred or something 
like that is his you want to trade places with   him basically no nobody would trade places with 
Charlie hunger right now for all the money in the   world well what if Charlie Munger likes what 
he's doing I understand that I'm just saying   like nobody would trade places with him because 
of the time you know because he's 90 something   oh like he's got billions of dollars so it's not 
it's not necessarily always about the money I see   what you mean but so you so to Joe's Point you'd 
end up with a really really happy last two years   of your life yeah that's right well it's our 
it's our friend uh doc G's book about hospice   you know about these people who spent their 
whole life chasing dollar bills or people   that spent zero time chasing dollar bills they 
spend all their time going no I don't need any   money and then they realize if I would have 
had some I could have had better family time   that's a good book hey let's throw out David 
lifeline and tackle some of life's most important   questions our friends at Haven life insurance 
agency Doug they put what you value first I   tell you what uh white breasted nut hatches white 
breasted nut hatches yeah what is that that's a   bird and it's also a realization that you've 
become old because one day you're joy riding   your frat brothers brand new car to Florida when 
all he thought was you were like driving around   the block and you're like we're going to Florida 
and the next day you're getting out your bird   ID app because some Bird shows up outside your 
window what is that at least it's an app and not   a book yeah true but uh and then I also spotted a 
fairly rare for my area a brown merger [Laughter]   both of those are fantastic names for birds and 
I saw them both this morning but you know you   know number one thing OG is it's an app on his 
phone but the thing that makes him proudest is   that it's his most used app on his phone like he 
gets that report from Apple and they're like you   open that Bird app a lot well thank you next 
to his uh walking step counter app and the one   that monitors his blood pressure he's he's also 
the continuous glucose monitor blood pressure   number of steps in the New Balance app 
I don't see a problem with any of this   to order new shoes every six months given his 
history Anything Could Happen hey uh speaking   of anything happening we should uh go ahead and 
throw a Paving Lifeline because the answer that   question Doug was your loved ones in your time 
with a bird app it's why they've made buying   quality term life insurance actually simple more 
time to catch the brown and merger beeping out of   the hole hey havenlife now 
please go there and then fast forward this 15   seconds to get us out of this bird discussion 
their application's simple getting us to cover   his decision their parent company Mass Mutual is 
more than 160 years old so you know that they've   done this before hey uh today we we I I love 
Karen repine our show Runners notes for us this   is uh Jim from Wisconsin calling in and Karen 
says Jim from Wisconsin a real person not Doug thanks we actually have a real Wisconsin 
idea is that was is it wisconsinite or   is it just cheese head do you just 
say cheesehead yeah I think that's   the preferred term it's in their 
state either Constitution hey Jim hey guys Jim here and I actually am from 
Wisconsin I have a question about what   percentage to contribute to my traditional 401K 
versus my Roth 401k I'm five to seven years away   from retirement maxing out my 401k contributions 
I read somewhere that when you have saved six   times your annual income you should move all 
your future contributions to the Roth option   what's the thought process in deciding how much 
to put where I'll be looking for that shirt thanks   Jim thanks for the call thanks by the 
way for proving that you're really from   Wisconsin uh Burton from Minnesota needs to 
learn from Jim he's got to put some Midwest   on that uh yeah if you're listening 
from last week take a note from Jim   it's a good effort Jim I'll give you that 
I mean you made a You made an attempt but [Music] it didn't you don't 
think Jim really talks like that   but that is not a Wisconsin accent oh not 
as good as yours was is that what you're   saying I don't know what you're talking 
about not as good as the interloper yeah   Jim thanks for the call oh gee have you heard 
this uh rule of thumb that he's using six times   nope six times what six times something I've 
never heard that gym next time something I've   never heard it yeah the answer to when should I 
put money in a Roth 401k versus a regular 401K   is largely determined by your ability to pay the 
taxes today you know you think about it if you're   making a hundred grand and you're contributing 
the maximum to your 401k you're putting 22   000 in your 401k this year which if it's pre-tax 
is going to lower your taxable income to 78 000   before your deductions and all that other sort of 
stuff that roughly is going to save you maybe four   or five thousand dollars in federal taxes because 
of that contribution not including any state taxes   if you switch to the Roth side then that deduction 
doesn't appear in your W-2 so you effectively are   going to have a four or five thousand dollar 
additional tax withholding throughout the year   so it's you know back to our discussion at the 
beginning of today your budget is going to be   affected by call it 400 bucks a month if you can 
afford that if you can fold that into your budget   and not go into credit card debt or not have to 
borrow more money for cars or student you know   like if you can deal with it then obviously it's 
better to pay your taxes today well not obviously   but it makes most sense I think to pay your taxes 
today because it's a known thing you know in the   future all of that money becomes tax-free forever 
and there's no there's no government requirements   of withdrawals there's no government requirements 
of those distributions that you have to take once   you are retired it's all in all the roths side 
is way way better but it comes at a cost which   is that 500 bucks a month well and I think I would 
think OG you know he talked about doing the Roth   later in the pretext earlier I would think that 
to pay that cost and to make it even more worth it   because of the fact that you are prepaying the tax 
you need those assets to grow much much much more   so I would think that at the very least flipping 
that around and doing the Roth first makes more   sense like the further you are away do the Roth 
don't don't do pre-tax first and then switch to   Roth I would do Roth as early as I can and switch 
to I mean if I'm choosing one or the other which   you and I know this most people that listen to 
this don't we haven't had this discussion a long   time we don't think either one of these is right 
we think you should be doing some of each because   you don't know what the future is going to hold 
but certainly or Roth first approach versus the   other way around it doesn't make more sense 
if you're thinking about it from the kind of   historical context of your earnings you're going 
to make the least amount of money early in your   career and the most amount of money on the back 
end right like usually that's how it works you   your income continues to increase throughout 
your career so if you have to pay your taxes I   would rather pay them at a lower rate if possible 
versus when I'm 50 and I'm making 200 000 a year   maybe that's the time to use the pre-tax bucket 
because of the fact that most 401ks come with   company matches and those matches are also pre-tax 
I think that if you can start out doing a Roth   early in your career and continue to do it your 
entire career you'll end up with a good enough   balance of Roth 401k and pre-tax because of the 
company matching contributions being pre-tax but   if you're really trying to optimize tax brackets 
and that sort of thing you can kind of manipulate   it as you get toward those higher tax brackets 
the problem with all of this of course is that   we're taking a very big guess at what tax rates 
are the day you withdraw the money how do we   know whether or not this worked pre-tax versus 
Roth well if you put the money in a Roth 401k   and you take it out in the future you're betting 
that today's tax rates are better than tomorrow's   tax rates you're saying I'd rather pay taxes today 
than in the future because the future I think are   going to be higher that's what you're saying and 
the vice versa is also true if you put the money   in pre-tax today you're saying I think I can take 
this money out at a better tax rate in the future   then I can pay it today so I'm you know I'm at 
a high tax bracket today I think I'll be in a   lower tax bracket in the future the only way that 
you know whether or not you're right is after you   know that you're right because we don't have 
the chart that says what are tax rates in 2037   because if we did then we would be able to 
calculate it and say with certainty this is   a better choice based on the circumstances 
all we're saying is I think I might have a   lower tax rate in the future or I think 
tax rates might be higher in the future   the one thing that I can say is that if Congress 
doesn't change any of the rules Roth contributions   Roth growth and earnings are 100 tax-free forever 
so I don't care what the tax rates are in 20 years   from now when I take the money out because it's 
tax-free yeah if I'm gonna lean I'm leaning toward   pay the taxes today be done with it that said 
slots approach too by the way which is to say   you got the cash today pay it today so that you 
don't look at your IRA and go I've got a million   bucks in my IRA it's like no you don't you have 
500 000 in your IRA because half of it is for the   government Doug I think this is really important 
uh stuff for you I mean given your history with   taxes and I have no history with taxes so I'm 
good well maybe that's the point you gotta earn   something to pay taxes maybe that's the point big 
thanks to you Jim for the call if you would like   to call and ask a question you know what we will 
send you a Haven life stacking Benjamin's greatest   money show on earth circus t-shirt and Jim from 
Wisconsin really from Wisconsin is getting one   cent his way slash voicemail gets you the shirt 
and we're happy very happy to send it to Jim as   I stare ready Doug as I say that I don't know why 
I'm staring at Doug as I said Jim well he sounds   hideous what are you talking about well it's 
just I mean it's like a fiction just thing right   this gym it's like the the State Farm guy that's 
who you're talking to I know I think it's Jim I   think somebody's having a tough day there OG well 
before we say goodbye today time for our community   calendar man we've got a great week over on the 
stacking deed show where Crystal Hammond and Alan   Corey dive into real estate Alex e Edwards is 
a guy who helps uh has helped a lot of people   in the southeast part of the United States 
get out of intergenerational poverty through   real estate teaching some real estate helps them 
learn how to buy houses how to learn to do it in   a responsible way he's going to be their guest on 
tomorrow's show over on stacking Deeds of course   our other sisters show the earninginvest podcast 
doc G always has guests who dive deep into Allah   into some some topic that is uh always exciting 
and a fantastic and a fantastic discussion he   has a friend of ours Fritz from the retirement 
Manifesto coming up on Thursday Fritz is a guy   who retired young documented his retirement an OG 
to Veronica's Point earlier in today's show Fritz   has really done it right this guy is so busy but 
now doing that second career I think he serves on   a couple of boards he Volunteers in the city of 
Asheville in a couple different capacities one   is working with animals he's always out in his 
wood shop this guy has so much going on he's not   sitting there wondering what he's going to do 
so if you're interested more in in retirement   Fritz will be over on earn invest of course here 
on Wednesday the draft the NFL draft is Thursday   so we've got Rob Welch he and a former NFL player 
wrote a book together about going pro with your   money we're going to talk Wednesday about no 
matter what you're trying to go pro in how do the   pros treat their money A lot of pro players about 
to get a big payday on Thursday and as we already   know a lot of them don't do the right thing with 
that sudden money OG it goes in the wrong place   that's what's coming up this week thanks so much 
for hanging out with us today if you're somebody   that's my kind of person and will leave a 
review for people that they only know via   podcast or maybe you've hung out with this 
on one of our social media channels please   leave a review of the show that helps us so 
much helps new stackers realize what they're   getting into a little different take on money 
than maybe some of the other shows out there   thanks to everybody who's done that Mom puts those 
on her refrigerator if you're not here though to   hang out with us on social media you're not here 
just for Doug's trivia you're here because of the   fact that you're worried about the economy you're 
worried about your money and and how it works   together and as a lot of those fears begin to ramp 
up for people you might be feeling anxious to make   some moves in your finances what I'd like you 
to do instead is check out this free guide that   OG and his team have put together that'll help you 
plan more and panic less no matter what the market   does it has some great insights on what you should 
be doing and smart questions to ask yourself so   that you make financial decisions your future self 
will thank you for head to   guide that's guide to get that 
free guide from OG all right that is what's going   on in the community man a lot of takeaways today 
but Doug what are the top three man well Joe first   take some advice from our guest Veronica McCain 
and create your own unique roadmap to retirement   second take a memo from our Tick Tock minute 
to up your vocab game and Excel above the   competition I'm sure you'll get promoted in no 
time but the big lesson turns out five times in   a row is the limit to singing Heartbreak Hotel 
at the top of your lungs after that Joe's mom   starts to get irritable and make threats now that 
I think about it probably was the hip thrusting thanks to Veronica McCain for joining us 
today you can find her book my retirement   my way a workbook for the newly retired to 
create meaning set goals and find happiness   wherever finer books are sold we'll also include 
links in our show notes at this show is the property of SB podcasts LLC 
copyright 2023 and is created by Joe salsi   High our producer is Karen rebein this show was 
written by Lacey Langford who's also the host of   the military money show with help from me Joe and 
Doc G from the earn an invest podcast Kevin Bailey   helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics 
covered on each episode in our newsletter called   the 201 you'll find the 4-1-1 on all things money 
at the 201 just visit 201   Tina eichenberg makes the video version of this 
show Once We bottle up all this goodness we ship   it to our engineer the amazing Steve Stewart Steve 
helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as   I do right now want to chat with friends about the 
show later mom's friend Gertrude and Kate Younkin   are our social media coordinators and Gertrude is 
the room mother in our Facebook group called the   basement so say hello when you see us posting 
online to join all the basement fun with other   stackers type basement 
not only should you not take advice from these   nerds don't take advice from people you don't 
know this show is for entertainment purposes   only before making any financial decisions 
speak with a real financial advisor I'm Joe's   mom's neighbor Doug and we'll see you next time 
back here at the stacking Benjamin show foreign [Music] the after show this is uh the part of 
the show that doesn't exist if you're   new here what happens in the after show stays 
in the after show getting back to your clothes   I think that singing Heartbreak Hotel at the 
top of your lungs just you know given your   history might not be might not be great well 
since my baby left I find a new place to dwell   they're down at the end the lonely streets 
called speaking of speaking of Doug's history   um there's unfortunately OG a doctor 
out there who has violated HIPAA rules   and um got us audio from Doug's latest therapy 
session and uh well I thought that as long as   they broke the rule we didn't we should probably 
play it look at the look OG can't wait for this   he is so excited about that well I think 
this is bad I think doctor shouldn't be   doing this but as long as they have let's no 
this is this is Doug's latest therapy session you what well you had waffles for dinner and you had   waffles for breakfast so we're 
gonna eat something else oh I oh I don't know sounds like you're obsessed now 
you're really crying pretty good there now   everybody is thinking about waffles like that 
brain worm is in there and you're going to   be thinking about it now for the rest of the 
day well I I think I I mean I I really think   that uh you shouldn't be thinking about waffles 
given your history you're begging for me to ask   I've resisted this whole time I'm not gonna 
ask I'm not gonna ask why you keep harping   on my history so OG and I saw this uh this video 
that these guys said that that if you really just   want to mess with somebody just end as many 
sentences as possible when you talk to them   with given your history just say it over and over 
and see what happens and watch them watch Doug   unravel the entire show they melt it is surgically 
effective like it has just been driving me crazy   I said it's Alyssa I don't even 
remember what it was about but I just   you know she was like brushing her 
teeth or something and said well you   know given your history and she's 
like what is that supposed to mean you know just totally like around everything 
to a halt just like you said yeah I think that   is a bad marital move I said this will work 
well with Doug I would not yeah I would not   do that right before bed because you are not 
sleeping that night stackers you may or may   not want to try that your results May Vary but 
ours ours I thought today were pretty good Doug   didn't know what the hell was going on 
actually now that I know it's actually   more impressive that you found a way to 
dodge my question the whole the whole   episode you know given your history of course 
yeah I'm not not enjoying your company anymore

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